Talk:Donner Party

Who is Charles T. Stanton?

Charles T. Stanton is first mentioned in the section "Wasatch Range": Reed, Charles T. Stanton and William Pike rode ahead to get Hastings. He is not among those listed in the article as members of the Donner Party and there is no explanation as who he is. Sansgloire (talk) 12:13, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

"Bear Valley"

The "Bear Valley" linked in the Forlorn Hope section of the article is verifiably not the same Bear Valley that the expedition was attempting to reach. Bear Valley, Alpine County, California is significantly further south than the winter camps.

I am reasonably confident that the Bear Valley referred to in the original source is the valley of the Bear River (Feather River tributary), which is mentioned earlier in the article and much closer to the camps. ButterscotchPuffin (talk) 02:28, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it's actually neither of those, and it doesn't have a Wikipedia article. I believe it's here on Google Maps. I have removed the link accordingly. If I am wrong or you find a Wikipedia article for the place please let me know. –CWenger (^ • @) 03:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree, that is the place I was trying to signify. I apologize if that wasn't clear. ButterscotchPuffin (talk) 04:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Ah you're right, it is Bear River (Feather River tributary), I thought it was yet another Bear River in California. Is it worth linking, you think? –CWenger (^ • @) 04:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Probably is worth linking. Needs to be clear where it's referring to.

California really needs to get more original with naming it's rivers. ButterscotchPuffin (talk) 04:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Done. Great catch by the way! –CWenger (^ • @) 05:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Inconsistencies in the party members

I tabled out the people mentioned as being part of the various groups and ran into some issues. (I got very lost in the names and thought a table would help me understand better.)

1. "Also traveling with the Donner brothers were teamsters Hiram O. Miller (29)" this particular teamster is never mentioned again.

2. Charles Stanton, who gets a portrait on the page, and Antonio both appear without any indication of how or where; the Donner Party timeline page mentions both as being members of the Donner group.

3. "Two young single men named Spitzer and Reinhardt traveled with another German couple, the Wolfingers, who were rumored to be wealthy; they also had a hired driver, "Dutch Charley" Burger." Although Joseph Reinhardt is mentioned again, Dutch Charley is not, and the only Spitzer mentioned is Augustus Spitzer, which implies them both to be duplicates of Augustus Spitzer and Charles Burger. Both of them were earlier classed as Donner group teamsters rather than Wolfinger's, and are classed as such on the Donner Party timeline page again.

4. "the Donner families hastily constructed tents to house 21 people, including Mrs. Wolfinger, [and] her child" this is the only mention of Mrs. Wolfinger's child in the entire article, and the 12 children mentioned are already filled by the various Donner children.

Related to 1 and 2 possibly: there's an offhand mention on leaving from Blacks Fork of "Donner hired a replacement driver". No reason is given for why he needed to hire a replacement, nor who the replacement is. It seems plausible that Hiram Miller left and was replaced with Charles Stanton or Antonio, but I don't have any idea of where to look in the references to check for the reality of the situation. If nothing else, that one sentence needs clarification.

Because of these inconsistencies, there are a minimum of 88 people mentioned, and if you include Sarah Keyes, Luis and Salvador, and the Wolfinger child, that number goes up to 92. This is two more than Stephen McCurdy's number. It seems likely that the Wolfinger child is not particularly historically attested, but the other extra person is unclear. I assume it's Hiram Miller, but, again, that's my supposition rather than a researched answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.77.121.239 (talk • contribs) 03:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Use of the term "migrant"

The common terms used for persons headed out west during the early 1800's included Pioneer farmers, homesteaders, or American settlers. Rarely, if ever, were they called "migrants". 2600:1700:A020:BC50:F0A3:B1B4:509B:247F (talk) 01:32, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

It appears that many modern sources use the term "migrants" for such people - see for example America's Great Migrations Project. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I think "migrants" is a more neutral term. WCCasey (talk) 15:30, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree - pioneer or settler are both politically charged. Migrant is totally neutral. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 17:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

More on "Bear Valley"

I agree that the identification with a river in Alpine County is completely wrong and that the specific Bear River in question is the Bear River (Feather River tributary). It was known by the Mexicans as "Rio Oso". I moved to Grass Valley, California about three years ago, and cross that river frequently on two different highways. The question I have is where along that river the sanctuary of "Bear Valley" was located? I cross that river on California State Route 49 between Grass Valley, California and Auburn, California, where it flows pretty calmly, and also a bit uphill higher and further to the east as California State Route 174 near Colfax, California, and the river is clearly a bit more rugged and mountainous at that crossing. Over its 73 mile length, that river gradually transforms from a very rugged mountain gorge to a calmer stream much closer to sea level approaching the Sacramento River system. But where I live is about 50 miles from Sutter's Fort, a several day's journey back in those days. Where along that river was the "valley" of refuge located? Was it a native American village, possibly Nisenan? Dutch Flat, California is in the area but that article mentions nothing about the Donner Party. Since the locations of the worst suffering of the Donner Party are so well understood and well documented, I would like to know more about the location and conditions of the "Bear Valley" place of refuge, which seems to be the place where many of the survivors concluded that they had actually survived their terrible ordeal. Cullen328 (talk) 07:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)